Facebook PBEM Games

[RobEng]

GTO Users
There have been a lot of strong feelings about our move to combine our Facebook Play-by-Email games with our Sit-n-Go tournament tables, which have an entry fee. We hesitated to respond to this because we wanted to hear what users had to say before we commented.

**GameTable Online continues to offer a lot free gaming content. We have 13 games that are completely free and 13 other game titles that allow free play against computer opponents.

**Facebook ads do not pay as well as many people think and we are unable to keep the system running on ad revenue at this time.

**GTO’s focus has been on developing our game portal with Facebook being a side outlet for our games. Maintaining the Facebook connection has required extra work and also been the reason for the applications being down commonly. By integrating the Facebook application with our PBE system, we are expecting better reliability.

**As Sit-n-Go tables there prizes for playing (raffle tickets) and for winning (GTO Points)

**We plan on adding a 3 GTO Coin option to start PBE without the Sit-n-Go functionality.

We are looking into the possibilities of league/tournament play and other ways of enabling PBE play to be more affordable for those who play PBE games exclusively.

**Our goal is to support our GTO members with additional Facebook functionality over time

It should be noted that in all this talk about this change, the games you had started before this change, are still active and free for you to play at no cost. In addition we have added some features including the ability to surrender in Axis & Allies, and the server picking up for absent opponents in non AA games.

GTO is a small company trying to deliver big company content. All we are trying to do is bring quality web games to gamers. Unfortunately that costs money. We hope that you understand our position.

Robert Eng
Vice-President
GameTable Online

[Kanino]

No one cares about playing against the AI. I could see a 5 maybe 10 dollar per year membership fee but a pay per play game option is absolutely ridiculous.

[aagamer_kc03]

Well even though I disagree with your reasoning I do appreciate the response in general. As I said before one of your strengths as a site has been the fact you guys normally do respond.

I think the real issue is that either you really don't expect much from Facebook or you may be in for a real disappointment if you guys do. I would guess the former...

The product simply doesn't warrant paying what your asking for. Not only is the economy in the dumps, there are many free or monthly/yearly games out there. The surrender bug is "nice" but doesn't come close to addressing the real problem which is people that just "stop playing" when they are losing. To expect people to pay and then not get their coins or points in this scenerio is a real problem. This is far, far more of an issue than guys wanting to surrender.

The teaser of other "free games" doesn't mean much. They are free because their is no demand for them. A&A (by your guys own admission in the past) is the bread and butter of GTO. I think the reason the coins work in "live" play is those people also have the option of not playing for coins....so they can choose when to wager coins and when not to. Were you to mandate all A&A games to require coins in live play you would take quite a hit there as well.

"GTO is a small company trying to deliver big company content. All we are trying to do is bring quality web games to gamers. Unfortunately that costs money. We hope that you understand our position."

Your not really delivering "big company content" is our cry. Almost everyone said they would pay a flat fee to play so I think the real issue is that you are trying to charge for server space with saved games....I can't see any other reason you would alienate peeple so quickly and with such strength

I also have a lot of connections with GenCon and some Hasbro guys. I know they are toying with creating a CD Rom version containing many variants. What little revenue you make now would dissipate in days if that happens. I think you are risking a lot with little reward. This leads me back to thinking you would almost be happier without facebook.

Rob, I have spoke to you on numerous occasions, I really like you....I just really disagree with this.

[tank_mechanik1]

i agree with gamer 100% it seems like just to be able to save we have to pay that just screams bad idea

[Sheepdawg]

To be honest, I was never a huge fan of a separate a&a game at facebook. It just seems to make more sense to me, if all the a&a players are in the same community. The reason I ended up using fb so much is because a save feature is so crucial for most competitive games that go well over the 3 hour mark.

I am under the impression that the facebook version was such a drain to gto because the high number of saved games in progress hogged a lot of space and resources. Is there any way to change the system so that the saved games are stored on the players' computers? That seems to be the best way to reduce your costs without angering players by enforcing a pay to play imo. I imagine that the fb version could be dropped if this save feature was implemented in the regular lobby game.

Increased costs will only push players to other cheaper (probably free) alternatives. The GTO version is my favorite because I like the interface, prefer fast action (as opposed to opponents taking hours or days to think every move through 10x in pbem), and it has a large a&a population that makes starting games rather easy. Other people can make good arguments about other systems though, especially when they are free and offer more options like full bidding, editting, classic edition, anniversary, LHTR, etc.

[quote="aagamer_kc03"]I also have a lot of connections with GenCon and some Hasbro guys. I know they are toying with creating a CD Rom version containing many variants.[/quote]

If Hasbro actually created an official a&a game, with all the extra features, all the variants, few bugs, and good player support for the problems that due arise, I think that would probably knock out all the various independent a&a systems as most players flock to it. That said, I have very little faith that Hasbro/Avalon/WOTC will actually ever accomplish that. And if they try, it will most likely end up bug riddled like the old cdrom/iron blitz, with the player support quickly abandoned. Leaving the a&a community where we are now...

My 2 cents

-Sheepdawg

[RobEng]

No one cares about playing against the AI. I could see a 5 maybe 10 dollar per year membership fee but a pay per play game option is absolutely ridiculous.

I see your point of view but $5-10 per year? That comes to 1 or 2 value meals at a fast food joint. Is how much you value the entertainment of a year's worth of AA online?

[dgss1]

I'm not a happy camper about this either-

dg

[RobEng]

Well even though I disagree with your reasoning I do appreciate the response in general. As I said before one of your strengths as a site has been the fact you guys normally do respond.

I think the real issue is that either you really don't expect much from Facebook or you may be in for a real disappointment if you guys do. I would guess the former...

The product simply doesn't warrant paying what your asking for. Not only is the economy in the dumps, there are many free or monthly/yearly games out there. The surrender bug is "nice" but doesn't come close to addressing the real problem which is people that just "stop playing" when they are losing. To expect people to pay and then not get their coins or points in this scenerio is a real problem. This is far, far more of an issue than guys wanting to surrender.

The teaser of other "free games" doesn't mean much. They are free because their is no demand for them. A&A (by your guys own admission in the past) is the bread and butter of GTO. I think the reason the coins work in "live" play is those people also have the option of not playing for coins....so they can choose when to wager coins and when not to. Were you to mandate all A&A games to require coins in live play you would take quite a hit there as well.

"GTO is a small company trying to deliver big company content. All we are trying to do is bring quality web games to gamers. Unfortunately that costs money. We hope that you understand our position."

Your not really delivering "big company content" is our cry. Almost everyone said they would pay a flat fee to play so I think the real issue is that you are trying to charge for server space with saved games....I can't see any other reason you would alienate peeple so quickly and with such strength

I also have a lot of connections with GenCon and some Hasbro guys. I know they are toying with creating a CD Rom version containing many variants. What little revenue you make now would dissipate in days if that happens. I think you are risking a lot with little reward. This leads me back to thinking you would almost be happier without facebook.

Rob, I have spoke to you on numerous occasions, I really like you....I just really disagree with this.

While the discussion is about PBEM, I want to remind folks that we over unlimited real-time play of Axis & Allies for $9.90, which we believe is a very fair price. We are not forcing people to pay for Sit-n-Go/PBEM games nor have any plans to.

How would you suggest we deal with the stallers? Force a surrender if a player doesn't make a move in a set amount of time?

As for big company content, I did say "trying to deliver." GTO is a work in progress. In addition to programming time, there is customer service and working out legal agreements with the publishers and designers who have the rights to the game.

[tootall72]

Rob, give me a break. Most people cannot, or do not want to sit and play Axis and Allies for 6-8 hours. So your statement that you offer unlimited access for $9.90 is meaningless. If you told me that I could pay $9.90 and play as many games as I wanted by PBEM then I would do it in a second.

Also I have yet to see one explanation about why you didn't inform people before this change was implemented. Don't you think some of anger would have been muted?

[aagamer_kc03]

Rob

You said:

"As for big company content, I did say "trying to deliver." GTO is a work in progress."

That's why it's baffling you would raise the cost with some of the issues remaining. Personally I think it is a good product and well worth $10/year to play....but once you make each game itself (PBEM) cost that's where the issue is for us

It's going to cause headaches if people actually buy coins....start a game and a guy just "quits playing" The point I was making is that about 90% more common than the 1-2 times I have had a guy say "Can I surrender?" Those coins are sorta just lost in cyberspace.

Of my last 10 "incomplete games" only 1x did the guy ask to surrender, 8 times they just quit playing and 1 time the guy killed the game (Which you guys did fix and that is good).

Live play is great for those that have the time. I still am curious why coins are required for PBEM and not live....your responses haven't explained that....is it a cost issue with server space?

[rem400]

I want to thank GTO for the surrender feature and the consolidation of the platforms. Thanks to Rob for answering questions (he must have drawn the short straw). Thanks to GTO for it's apparent willingness to listen and respond to it's customer concerns.

However, I'm disappointed in the way this change was dropped on the community days before Labor Day. It's hit a nerve with FB/PBEM players. I can't afford to invest hours in live play anymore except in rare circumstances so this directly impacts me.

I can address details later and have lots of suggestions, but for now I would suggest this issue be addressed immediately so as not to create a permanent problem. User Groups are successful for software companies to gain valuable feedback from their customer base in terms of priortizing enhancements, bug fixes, etc. Pricing is another animal; however, I would suggest such a dialog between GTO and representatives of the community to address this and other issues so that there is no permanent damage. Communication is never a bad thing.

[ZudZwang]

The FB app is what lead me to pay the fee for GTO's live play. If it had been pay per game, I would never have joined. I used the FB app to learn the interface, work out strats, and adjust to a new game.
I have been playing A&A on line since Jan 2000. It has been great but the 3rd ed community is shrinking fast. Without the gateway of a FB, how will new players come to enjoy the game enough to want to pay to play?
My first two games at FB were awful since my computer settings were not right and I could not see the entire screen. One game like that where I had to pay to play and I would have said forget this.
$10 a year might not be much but it is more than $0. I will not pay to play an individual game when there are bugs, an unknown opponent, no option of the side I play, and crashes from the system.(I lost 6 games in the June crash)
For now I have paid the fee to GTO live play and I will play games there. If more surprise fees pop up I will consider my $10, it is $10 cause you cant buy $9.90 in coins, a donation and walk away from GTO.

ZZ

[Kanino]

Yes Rob, I feel 5 or 10 dollars a year is a fair price for what is offered here.

[Jimbeamerziggy]

Hey Rob, Just off the bat I really appreciate you opening up some form of dialogue.. I was getting worried. I do agree that when making decisions like this you should inform your player base.

The questions i had that were answered by Kandelon had me really excited about the direction fb was heading, ie. the save feature and other bug fixes. If i had known id have to pay to play i wouldn't have been excited at all and as a result i felt very let down and even a little bit misled.

I read a post elsewhere where somebody offered up the sponsor suggestion. I thought that was a great idea as you do have a strong product in progress and a loyal market for said product. It seems you aren't quite in the traffic position you need to be to make it work just yet... so finding a sponsor to chip in financially and maybe help pay for some advertising might be a very logical step for you guys.

Any thoughts on that?

I just feel like you guys need to be on the lookout for a way to make this work seeing as I'm not convinced your current p2p plan isn't going to fail epicly.

(btw bringing up live is considered little more than an offensive distraction to a good chunk of your player base, most of us aren't interested in a 4+ hour game in one sitting, as others have made clear)

[CaptainColeslaw]

For comparison, when i first joined in '03 the price was $3.99/month or a discounted rate of $35/year with a two week free trial period (and saw noticeable abuse of the free trial period via re-registering as a new user). This was prior to the WOTC/Hasbro games being hosted here. Since then there have been different membership models to try to curb potential abuse of the old membership model. So, is $5-$10 really reasonable for a yearly fee considering the expenses of hosting the site and employing full time programmers, personally i think it's doubtful. Perhaps we might consider the PBEM as it's own premium content requiring activation since there is so much aversion to the pay per play.
I'm just throwing some ideas out there. I want to see a reasonable outcome come of this for all sides.