Sub defending in AA42 (game 49422)

[gingerbenjamin]

Hoping to clarify if I mis-understood the rules or if this is a bug.

I have two german subs of the coast of western europe in PBEM game. They are not set to submerge. UK brings in lone tranny and plane and they do not fight. UK kills my planes in western with by unloading tranny and using air support there.

Did I miss something? If there are any sea based units is the zone and they are not set to submerge, surely they should fight?

Game id 49422 - any help in clarifying this appreciated!!!!

thanks,
Ben.

[tsondaboy]

As per rules, any ship unit can ignore the Subs. What submerge does is, "if there is any battle, then the subs submerge before it (unless there are DDs present)".
There was no battle in the sector, the tranies just choose to ignore the subs.

[DJ_Slick]

This same rule allows subs to move through enemy-occupied sea zones without a battle unless an enemy destroyer is present.

Since transports cannot attack or otherwise participate in a sea battle, no sea battle took place. It seems odd compared to all the prior versions, but in 1942 ships and an opposing power's submarines can basically occupy the same space indefinitely unless a destroyer is present to disclose the submarines. Now of course, the german subs can attack and sink the unprotected transport in the next combat phase without a battle taking place. The Allies would have to bring in at least one combat vessel to protect the transport to avoid an automatic kill.

[gingerbenjamin]

Thanks guys I understand my mistake now, you can't use subs alone to defend I see. Shame it cost me 2 fighters to learn it

[Sammog]

I've gotta be honest I think it's one of the more absurd rules in the AA42 set. Larry has completely lost me on that one.

[smalldog47]

I like the rule..works well in the pac theater...not allowing subs to used as blocker(for that matter trannies as well) the dumbest thing about revised in my opinion is the use of lone tranny to block huge fleet from doing any serious damage..Fleets were meant to protect transports not the other way around.....let me hide my 5 battleships behind 1 transport.....unlikley!!!

[kemal81]

There are things that don't make sense with both versions. However I think 1942 makes less sense than Revised. Like a single fighter can kill 20 or even more transports. A transport can ignore a sub. Besides you can still block a fleet in 1942 with a destroyer which costs almost about the same as a transport. I think I would have liked 1942 more if the transports were still defending with 1 but yet they had to be picked up last. Also if a transport is approaching it should be defending players choice whether to ignore or engage with their subs. With strategical bombing I think 1942 has better rules. Its annoying when I capture Caucasus in Revised with its aa gun taken and allies start to bomb it.

[bleslie88]

Well in live game how does that work out?

PBE I know this works how about live?

[smalldog47]

Kemal...atleast a dd is warship with guns out to do some harm. The idea behind transports being defenseless is that they were largely frieghters without much of an ability to shoot back.. Imagine 30 transports in the north atlantic vs the bismark..maybe some could hope to escape by sailing away but never ever would they be able to sink the bismark.In revised the G-BAT would usually lose if attacked anything more than 3 trannies...and 3 would be tough with a round 1.. 5 or 6 roll. Just my opinion but the 42 fleet rules seem much more realistic..

[kemal81]

Both versions have unrealistic scenarios. Like my scenario with 1 fighter taking out 20 transports is unrealistic as your scenario a single battleship being killed by 30 transports. However the unrealistic scenarios of Revised is not as bad as of 1942. In one of the games I played in 1942 my opponent attacked my American fleet by a slightly weaker group of German subs and aircrafts. The dice went his way and the battle came down to a single German bomber vs 1 damaged BB and 8 transports. The bomber scored a hit and BB missed, which meant that 8 transports also sunk automatically. This is not "warships protecting transports" that 1942 advertises. If 1942 was realistic then the transports should have been able to escape or at least some of them while BB is fighting the bomber. With Revised I can take bad dice. But its win or die with 1942 sometimes. If only my BB had hit back I would have 8 transports (56 ipcs value) survived. A single die should not have this much power in a strategy game. In luck vs strategy spectrum, this makes 1942 more of a luck game than Revised is. There is no rule in Revised that is as ridicule as 1 aircraft or 1 warship can take out as many as infinite number of unprotected transport ships. But hey if people want to play 1942 over Revised then good for them. I am going to keep playing my Revised.

[lukalion]

Both versions have unrealistic scenarios. Like my scenario with 1 fighter taking out 20 transports is unrealistic as your scenario a single battleship being killed by 30 transports. However the unrealistic scenarios of Revised is not as bad as of 1942. In one of the games I played in 1942 my opponent attacked my American fleet by a slightly weaker group of German subs and aircrafts. The dice went his way and the battle came down to a single German bomber vs 1 damaged BB and 8 transports. The bomber scored a hit and BB missed, which meant that 8 transports also sunk automatically. This is not "warships protecting transports" that 1942 advertises. If 1942 was realistic then the transports should have been able to escape or at least some of them while BB is fighting the bomber. With Revised I can take bad dice. But its win or die with 1942 sometimes. If only my BB had hit back I would have 8 transports (56 ipcs value) survived. A single die should not have this much power in a strategy game. In luck vs strategy spectrum, this makes 1942 more of a luck game than Revised is. There is no rule in Revised that is as ridicule as 1 aircraft or 1 warship can take out as many as infinite number of unprotected transport ships. But hey if people want to play 1942 over Revised then good for them. I am going to keep playing my Revised.

Ye in revised version of your scenario 8 transports would be dead , German subs and aircrafts would be dead but the whole American fleet of warships would be alive, ye that is is much more realistic.
I don see how can 8 transports escape from the plain which is 50 times faster and on the sea its not like they can run and hide somewhere.

[kemal81]

Tell me one scenario that you can have as unrealistic as 1 fighter taking out 1 billion transports in Revised. I know it's extreme example but the point is 1942 allows it to happen. But even with 8 transports vs 1 bomber, those transports are still armed with aa gun. The most unrealistic scenario I can think of in Revised is say UK has IC in India and Japan has bunch of heavy bombers and taking out all the money of Uk. But still not close to unrealistic scenario i gave with 1942. Yes with the example I gave earlier the transports may still be killed in Revised, but the damage I have as money value will be still closer to what will happen in real war. In real war with example I gave some ships would have survived easily and they would be mostly transports. In Revised some ships will still survive but not the right ones. The ships that will survive are warships where they were supposed to be transport ships and this is where Revised fails. However 1942 fails more as it doesnt allow no ships to survive at all and so 1942 fails more than Revised. Both Revised and 1942 also fail in limiting amount of bombs and bullets that units can carry in a battle but this flaw is being abused more in 1942. And yes bombers are way faster than transports but it will be so hard for a bomber to have the enough fuel and bombs to chase down the remaining transports which are armed by aa guns after the long battle the bomber had with warships. And one more thing 1942 is supposed to be an improvement over Revised and yet it has more flaws. The examples I am giving are comparing to a real war and you may make the case that well it's just a game and it doesn't need to be realistic. But it has flaw there too as the example I gave in previous post a die roll I get, with a BB, of 1, 2, 3 or 4 could have meant I am still in the game but a die roll of 5 or 6 I am out of the game. A single die should not decide this much in a game unless of course you are attacking a capital where it came down to 1 land unit vs 1 land unit. One more unrealistic scenario of 1942 which is the reason why we have this thread. A single transport can cruise through a sea zone that is full of enemy submarines and submarines can't touch it until it unloads. You may argue that there are instances the transport might be lucky and they go undetected but I am pretty sure it wouldn't happen 100% of the time which 1942 allows.

[lukalion]

Uk1 attack - destroyer and ac sent to kill japan tranny near Manchuria , bad dices both dead UNREALISTIC
Uk1 attack - 2 fighters vs 1 ger tranny , bad dices both dead UNREALISTIC
G1 ger sub destroyed by uk tranny on sz 1 ???? wtf tranny proll got anti-torpedo equipment or captain on the sub is drunk

navy 20 trannys 2bbs 2dest against 10 fight + 5 subs

- real life navy dead
- 1942 navy dead
- revised air+subs destroyed

[kemal81]

You are missing the point. Both versions have unrealistic scenarios. I have already admitted that. However, 1942 is way more unrealistic and it stays more unrealistic until you give me an example where a single unit can kill 100 or more units in Revised with a probaility of at least 1%. And it wasn't like transports were completely defenseless. Not only were they armed some times they would be escorted by small ships like PT boats. So at least you can give some reality for the scenario of a warship being killed by a transport because the PT boat escorting the transport sunk it. Revised doesn't put those boats exclusively into the game but at least you can somehow feel that transports have some defense just like they did in real war. Giving defense of 1 to transport is Revised's way of making them they have other things also defending them. Real war gives transports small boats or aa guns to defend, Revised gives them a defence of 1 and 1942 gives them nothing. And I don't want to say it the 3rd time but you are also avoiding the other point I am making with a single die has so much power in naval battles in 1942. This makes 1942 more of a luck game than Revised is. In Revised only extreme luck can be devastating to an opponent but 1942 makes it so if you miss and you have 1/3 chance to miss then you might lose 56 ipcs or 100 ipcs or 200 ipcs or infinity ipcs. The sky is not the limit with 1942. In a strategy game I play I should not have this kind of extreme loss with a chance of 1/3. I can always accept 1/1000 or 1/100 but definetely not 1/3. That one single rule of any remaining transport ships must be destroyed ruins the game for me. Others apparently don't mind it but I don't like playing game where luck is such a big factor. I think if it wasn't for that rule and also transports can ignore the defending subs rule, I would have probably like 1942 more than Revised.

[lukalion]

I think u are missing the point the transports in 42 are described as defenseless so ofc i fighter can kill 30 trannys, it is like u asking the question how can 1 ger man occupy the Moscow with few millions civilians . Its how the rules are set for gaming purpose.

The point is that in 42 u cant build 2 warships and bunch of trannys and "park" them in front of Paris cause they will be destroyed by Ger air and subs and in revised German player want even consider taking that risk of attacking that so called "navy" cause he will lose entire air and enemy player will just rebuild few more trannys while in 42 he needs to rebuild entire fleet. And because of this u are going to build bigger fleet before u start your landings cause as u sad u are not going to risk to lose 100-1000000000000 ipcs on a coin flip.
- also i dont like in revised that with some lucky dices ger and jap bombers can keep russian production to 0 or allies against ger.

For me 42 got more strategic options then revised and that is why i like to play it more.