The big stack

[masterD]

We've all been there- sitting on the outskirts of Russia and staring at a huge stack of men, tanks, and/or figthers. The question I have has anyone developed some kind of strategy in dealing with that. In a previous game, I was staring at 26 men, 10 tanks, and 8 fighters in Russia. I had a total (Japan included) of 27 tanks and 18 men but that did not seem like enough to pierce that fortress. The game was stagmenting along as every turn I added more tanks and some men, but my opponent landed more fighters and deposited more men there.

Has anyone developed an efficient counter to the big stack problem. What kind of strategy do you guys utilize when trying to overrun an impressive stack? Are cannon faughter units a necessity or do you want all striking power?

[bmaster]

1. only sit building up against a big stack if your odds are getting better. maybe your opponent is in a better position and you have a 30% chance to win now -- doesn't mean it's a bad attack if you can see he's getting more guys to the front faster than you. Take your best shot when you have it.

2. You need a certain ratio of offensive power to infantry peons (i'll let someone else suggest what it tends to be), but peons have their uses. When you have enough infantry, you can be defended against the "defender's" possible counterattack, but keep marching and take more land. The defender's big stack eventually has to sit in their capital. For instance, when germany marches into west russia, even if they can't take moscow, russia has to abandon caucusus. If your stack is insufficient to win, it still may be sufficient to gain more ground and try to win in the long run economically.

3. try to get people with a big stack to contest ground each round with units in adjacent, so that it drains their reinforcements away. Particularly if japan and germany have two small stacks vs 1 russian big stack, you might need to wear them down, and then go for a 1-2 knockout punch in succession.

[westerner]

If USSR turtles in Moscow, I usually rejoice as Axis, because it means I can take all surrounding territories and the economic situation will favor me. With Japan's income at ~50IPC you can pump in 9 tanks a round. Concentrate on cutting USSR off from allied reinforcements and they won't be able to hold out long.

The scenario that scares me as Axis is a mid to high 20's IPC USSR, with Soviet infantry on the outer ring trading territory, and enough Soviet tanks in the center to deadzone stacking attempts. Then if the Brits can land in Eastern Europe and cut Germany off from attacking USSR, the Allies will probably win the long game barring tactical blunders.

[scifiantihero]

Some tips from an. . . intermediate axis player, but probably a fairly good allies player:

Use the German stack to make a big threat somewhere on the western front so that those pesky allies holed up in Persia/India/Novo/China/Whatever are forced to pull back. Timing that right can swing the game 4-10 IPCs in your favor.

In the same vein, use a Japan stack landing around Novo to threaten Moscow enough that the Germans can push into Russian territory in the West.

Um, figure out (preferably before you encounter a giant stack) whether you're playing a long kind of economic game (in which case building up stacks might be to your advantage) or a blitzier game (where buying tanks for the rest of the game might not be the optimal use of money at other times, but will win the game here. 70 IPCs of tanks pushing to Moscow is still 70 IPCS of tanks pushing against 27 IPCS of Russians if the other allies aren't there yet.)

I guess in my experience on either side, there comes a point in the game where the axis have to push. That's probably why I don't enjoy playing them as much, I'd rather just sit back and trade infantry all day until I have enough that my opponent pushes the surrender button! The window for pushing depends on a lot of factors, but identifying it correctly is probably a skill that anyone who is good at this game has figured out. I've played tons of games where the push comes to early, or too late. Sometimes it never comes at all! The Allies can win without a capital. The Axis really can't, and Moscow is definitely the easiest to take.

[smalldog47]

That really is'nt such a large stack in moscow but you are correct not to attack...the key is to get him to attack you or as others have said grab all his $$ including cauc. I move my entire J stack to kaz....now all your inf defend at 2 instead on attack at 1 and visversa for him..He cannot defend cauc or you will hit mosc,if he attacks you thats what you wanted or if he stays turtled cauc is yours.. for full disclosure i'm an averagish revised player..

[jbrentmorrison]

If Germany has Russia pinned in Moscow, have you considered turning Japan toward the US? Likely Japan has a 10-20 IPC margin over the US by this time, and if the Pacific was being ignored, you could quickly slap around the Canadians and pose a serious threat to the US (either east or west coast; nearly impossible to effectively defend both).

Overall, I liken my strategy to water finding the least resistance. The enemy can't be EVERYWHERE, and if he is, you are already undone.

[Sammog]

Overall, I liken my strategy to water finding the least resistance. The enemy can't be EVERYWHERE, and if he is, you are already undone.

Beautifully put.

[dgss1]

When I see this title. I am reminded of a 3rd edition game with 400++ units on the board(between all country's).
think I have seen close to or just over 300 units in revised.
Those were some "Big Stacks"

dg

[UtzChips]

Once I amass a "big stack" [compared to others at the table] I cash out.......oh wait.........that's NL Hold 'Em

[rockismyreligion]

We've all been there- sitting on the outskirts of Russia and staring at a huge stack of men, tanks, and/or figthers. The question I have has anyone developed some kind of strategy in dealing with that. In a previous game, I was staring at 26 men, 10 tanks, and 8 fighters in Russia. I had a total (Japan included) of 27 tanks and 18 men but that did not seem like enough to pierce that fortress. The game was stagmenting along as every turn I added more tanks and some men, but my opponent landed more fighters and deposited more men there.

Has anyone developed an efficient counter to the big stack problem. What kind of strategy do you guys utilize when trying to overrun an impressive stack? Are cannon faughter units a necessity or do you want all striking power?

As the Axis, if you are clever (or lucky) enough to force the Russians into a turtling position, but are not gaining strength on a turn-by-turn basis, there is something wrong with your strategy. Germany has to not only be able to stack Ukraine/Caucasus well, but it has to pose a significant threat up north in order to dissuade the UK from counterstacking, or landing in order to reinforce Moscow from Archangel. Japan has to not only be able to stack Persia/Caucasus well, but it has to have an efficient use of transports in order to counter a push through Africa (typically by the Americans).

The best thing you can do as the Axis is develop your long-game skills.

The key here is to perfect your buys. You must make the correct purchases, and in the right order too. Both Axis players producing large quantities of infantry not only tip the scales heavily in their favor (especially after they control most of the IPCs on the board) unit-wise when comparing sheer quantity in attacks, but provide plenty of fodder when properly backed by correct amounts of artillery, followed by tanks and air. Germany needs to early on, either produce a couple of tanks a turn to help their early stack of Karelia, or go several rounds as all infantry, followed by sporadic purchases of artillery and infantry, tanks and infantry, or all tank buys. Japan needs to do the same thing. Unless you're rushing Moscow, Japan does not need to buy tanks for its Asian ICs at all. Firstly, it's a waste of money, as tanks eat up your budget faster, and second, you can't get heavy fast enough. Russia typically produces more infantry alone than Japan does tanks, usually ever, and if properly reinforced by Western Allied air, will stand up very well against Japanese tank hits. As it behooves both Axis players and Russia to trade deadzones early on, infantry are of utmost importance. They heavy stuff must follow near the beginning of the endgame jockeying for position.

The next step is properly pushing and stacking the right territories.

Germany must be able to hold Karelia. In the beginning of many games, Germany can very easily stack Karelia on its first turn. The key is holding it. Holding Karelia not only keeps the UK out, but opens up more Russian territory to trade, further depleting the Red Army faster than normal. Once the Allies are heavy, Germany can just as easily stack Belorussia, and avoid double-taps on its possession, defending a heavily invested in stack of troops. If the Western Allies stack Karelia with Russian help, Germany needs to assess whether or not it can force the Allied stack to split, or make a careless mistake like hitting a large German stack (in which Germany can typically shred in sequential order if properly developed. Germany has to counterstack Ukraine at the right time. If the Allies split improperly, it opens up the possibility of stacking West Russia, or crushing the weaker Allied stack, essentially cutting them out of the game, if only for a few rounds. Japan must be able to hold Persia. Persia is the key territory for Japan that not only keeps Russia from shoving a bunch of units down through Sinkiang, or sneaking around the northern tip of Siberia, but it also keeps any Allied stacks massed in Africa from reinforcing Caucasus. A similar stack by Germany against Caucasus forces Russia to either one, take a double hit in that territory, or give it up. Usually, a good Axis team (or player) will allow the more flexible Axis power to produce there after taking it. A Russian player who leaves his entire stack in Caucasus allows for Germany to not only stack West Russia, but Japan to stack Kazakhstan as well. This forces Russia into making almost the same decision: "Do I retreat to Moscow, or hit one of the Axis stacks to either attempt to crush it, or strategically strafe it?"

The final step is holding Caucasus with enough force to allow you to focus on other objectives for the time being.

Once the Axis powers stick enough manpower into Caucasus, Russia taking it back becomes a non-issue for both Germany and Japan. What then needs to happen is Germany starting to produce closer to home in order to either whip up is flank against the Western Allies, or work to restack Karelia in order to keep Allied units from reaching Moscow to reinforce it. Japan here can focus on taking African territory in order to not only weaken the UK in unit production, but also beef up its ability to produces tanks to support its large masses of infantry, or bombers the turn before it considers hitting Moscow.

Research some of the Egyptian/African fortress strategies as well as the Karelia stacking strategies in the Axis forums to brush up on the tactics used in the overall strategy to build and maintain heavy force (and thus, swinging stack potential). All in all, a Russian army hunkered down should in no way pose a larger threat to a competent Axis, or an impenetrable barrier. If the overall Axis strategy is correct, the UK and US should not have to ability to get sufficient reinforcements to Moscow. Therein lies your issue.

[General_Dawg]

Very well written Rock, I am impressed with your ability to communicate in such an eloquent and sound manner. I almost want to say you should write a book, but I wouldn't want that comment to give you a big head. Perhaps I will read your strategy threads. Thanks!

[jbrentmorrison]

Beautifully put.

Thank you.

[David_Newell]

Big Stack? If it doesn't contain 200 tanks, it's not a big stack.

[jbrentmorrison]

Big Stack? If it doesn't contain 200 tanks, it's not a big stack.

I can just imagine "We can't continue this game, Newell, until I get a faster computer."

[rockismyreligion]

Big Stack? If it doesn't contain 200 tanks, it's not a big stack.

I can just imagine "We can't continue this game, Newell, until I get a faster computer."

Newell's heavy stacking games eat more compute cycles than Fat Bastard eats babies. You'll need enough RAM to bail out your video card.