GTO Tournament Guidelines

[GamerJeff]

So, why the big deal and complicated math? (Sorry if this doesn't make sense to me as I write this, and thank you IN ADVANCE for the explanation!)

We have been running multi-player game tournaments (Board games, card games, strategy) for over 20 years at a couple of different stores I've owned.

Basically it works like this:

What is the biggest number of opponents that could appear in any game system? Give out points in all game systems based on that. For example, if 6 players could play in any game, give the winner 6 pts, 2nd place 5 pts, 3rd 4pts, 4th 3 pts, 5th 2 pts, 6th place and all other places 1 pt.
Each tournament may use a different system to add/subtract, tie-break, etc.

Examples:
Chess/Go/Backgammon/Pente/Checkers/Scrabble/Cribbage all two-player games - Win = 3pts, draw 1 pt, loss 0 pts. for each game. At end of tournament winner gets 6 pts, etc. based on above number of opponents. Some have built in tie-breaks (Scrabble, cumulative +/- score, Pente # of points scored (pairs, pentes, quads), Cribbage, total score, etc.)

Card games like 500, Euchre, hearts, spades, etc. also have built-in running or cumulative scores. At end of tournament winner gets 6 pts, etc. based on above number of opponents.

Multi-player games like Nuclear War can simply use place finished for each game based on number of opponents again.

So if you are in a 3 round tournament (like the player earlier had against Becky for example) and you finished 1st, 1st and 3rd, using a 6 person system, you would score 6 + 6 + 4 for 16 points.

Tie-breaking? Why? Are we awarding a title? A trophy? If we are simply awarding GTO points, let any co-winners split the prizes. This has worked well here in Minnesota for over 20 years. I do have several methods of tie-breaking, but they are rarely used unless trophies or a title are on the line.

Also, one of the methods I've been using for the last few years is the same as above, but with *weighted scores* to assume the responsibility of early tie-breaking procedures, and is extremely useful in multi-game scenarios.

For example, let's say you have 15 players playing in a 3 table Settlers of Catan tournament. This would be a four round tournament.
1) 3 players per table, points start at 3 for 1st, 2 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd.
2) As each table finishes, sort each player to be paired on new tables based on score group.
3) 2nd round points are the same as first round.
4) 3rd round points are changed as follows:
4 for 1st, 3 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd
5) 4th round point are same as 3rd round

The idea behind weighted points allows for winners playing winners to accumulate more, essentially rising to the top, those of us having a bad night getting not-so-many points and playing on the bottom tables.

We have played around with the same weighted system, upping the values each round except for last place, then just going to a final table in 4th or 5th round in Ticket To Ride, Settlers, 3 Dragon Ante, etc.. Seems to work just fine.

Comments? Questions?

[RobEng]

So, why the big deal and complicated math? (Sorry if this doesn't make sense to me as I write this, and thank you IN ADVANCE for the explanation!)

We have been running multi-player game tournaments (Board games, card games, strategy) for over 20 years at a couple of different stores I've owned.

Basically it works like this:

What is the biggest number of opponents that could appear in any game system? Give out points in all game systems based on that. For example, if 6 players could play in any game, give the winner 6 pts, 2nd place 5 pts, 3rd 4pts, 4th 3 pts, 5th 2 pts, 6th place and all other places 1 pt.
Each tournament may use a different system to add/subtract, tie-break, etc.

Examples:
Chess/Go/Backgammon/Pente/Checkers/Scrabble/Cribbage all two-player games - Win = 3pts, draw 1 pt, loss 0 pts. for each game. At end of tournament winner gets 6 pts, etc. based on above number of opponents. Some have built in tie-breaks (Scrabble, cumulative +/- score, Pente # of points scored (pairs, pentes, quads), Cribbage, total score, etc.)

This system was brought in to distinguish between the performance between the 2nd place player who was narrowly beat out vs. the distant 2nd place.

Card games like 500, Euchre, hearts, spades, etc. also have built-in running or cumulative scores. At end of tournament winner gets 6 pts, etc. based on above number of opponents.

We do something along these lines for some games like Cosmic Wimpout.

Multi-player games like Nuclear War can simply use place finished for each game based on number of opponents again.

Nuclear War is a tough one as many games will have no winner. What we do for Nuclear War and Kill Dr. Lucky is to have a prize pool and everyone who wins a game gets a portion of the prize pool for each win.

Tie-breaking? Why? Are we awarding a title? A trophy? If we are simply awarding GTO points, let any co-winners split the prizes. This has worked well here in Minnesota for over 20 years. I do have several methods of tie-breaking, but they are rarely used unless trophies or a title are on the line.

I think this is a good point. Do other GTO gamers feel similarly?

In general, when I adopted this system I wanted to recognize better play. Realistically as players, you just have to play but as staff we have to do the computations so we are open to simplification. JayAdan is handling tournaments nowadays so I defer to his decision and the invite the GTO community to chime in.

[JayAdan]

So far I've just been continuing Rob's fine work of the past few years. If Rob says that this works, then I'm okay with it. Having said that, I'm a big fan of "simpler is better."

Having done the calculations for the tournaments for a while now I can tell you that the current system is anything but simple. I'll be a lot happier when we have an automated system for handling tournaments. Still, it doesn't take too long to do it. All I do is take down the results on game night, then run things through the spreadsheet the next day (so I can get some sleep).

I'm interested to see if there are other opinions on this.

[GamerJeff]

Hey, I'm not advocating you have to change....just throwing out some ideas to help, bounce off the wall, etc. :)

Maybe a poll on how people feel about splitting the GTO points if they tie?

[fishious]

hey,

i have been running acquire tournaments in teh netherlands.
We allways use a percentage system.
At the end of a game all scores for a table are added together and everybody's precentage of the total money is calculated. That percentage is the score for that player.
It works really well. If you had a good game and totally trashed your opponents, this will be reflected in your score. It also creates some strategic play.

If possible i would like to organize a dutch open online acquire championship.
We have got a group of about 50-100 active players.

Let me know whether this is possible. If we have to use the standard scoring system, no problem.

MArijn

[JayAdan]

hey,

i have been running acquire tournaments in teh netherlands.
We allways use a percentage system.
At the end of a game all scores for a table are added together and everybody's precentage of the total money is calculated. That percentage is the score for that player.
It works really well. If you had a good game and totally trashed your opponents, this will be reflected in your score. It also creates some strategic play.

If possible i would like to organize a dutch open online acquire championship.
We have got a group of about 50-100 active players.

Let me know whether this is possible. If we have to use the standard scoring system, no problem.

MArijn

If you wanted to organize something special like this you may use whatever guidelines that you wish for running a tournament. Just let me know when you want to set it up and I will help promote it on the site.

- Jay

[spacebug]

Is there any chance of a Roborally tournament at some point? :)

[GamerJeff]

Sure! I would be happy to run one! Here are some ideas:

1) Date/Time - Let's pick a date say a Saturday, Noon start time. Everyone has to be online.

2) Board/Settings - Let's pick a board to use, with default timer.
2A-Use a GTO board
or 2B-Use a custom board.
I would like to try this with a GTO board for the first tournament, then the next tournament we have, I will create a custom course and show it to no one before the tournament. It will be a complete surprise to everyone who plays. (I can upload it to roborally.gamerjeff.com just before the tournament so that all players can download it for use.) Or we can vote on a custom board to use for the next tournament.

3) Players/AI's - We can:
3A-Max out the number of people per board (8 to a board)
or 3B-Settle for 3, 4 or 5 per board based on number of people in the tournament.
3C-AI's will not be used unless someone loses connection. If that happens, the result of their AI is their result for that round. If they do not reestablish a presence in the lobby before the next round starts, they will be dropped from the tournament, scoring 0 for any remaining rounds.

4) Format to use - We can use Swiss-style or Tryout/Knockout:
4A - We can use a Swiss-style event pairing people based on their overall standings each round (not on people they have not played with) and have a final for the top 8. We have two choices for scoring:
4Ai - 1st 8 points, 2nd 7 points, 3rd, 6 points..... 8th 1 point
or 4Aii - 1st 4 points, 2nd 3 points 3rd 2 points 4th-8th 1 point each.

4B - We can have a knock-out format, where each round the winner of each board advances to the final board. As soon as we have 8 people for the final board, the tryout part of the tournament is over and the final board players play one final game.
4Bi - Each round as players win, they are 'knocked out' (they no longer participate in the tryout portion of the tournament). Instead they will be asked to wait, playing other games or Robo Rally games, until the top 8 players are seeded. So if you win first round, you are done until Top 8 players have been reached. (We have tried formats like this for other games, leaving players in the field, knowing that they have qualified, however, it tends to lead towards 'king-maker' results and favoritism.)

So, start throwing out some ideas and let me know. We can set one up rather quickly!

[spacebug]

Saturday noon - Would this be noon Minnesota time? This would suit me, but no earlier (as Saturday noon for you is 7am Sunday for me). I get the impression that this is quite a busy time for Roborally players.

Your idea for boards sounds good. If you were to make a custom board for the final, you would have to make sure that the different starting positions didn't have huge advantages. As for GTO boards to use, I'm a fan of Robot Stew, Whirlwind Tour, Tricksy maybe Vault Assault?

I like not having any AIs, I also like the idea of having overall standings rather than knockout.

[weezel]

I'm interested in A&A tournaments. I'm not sure what to do or how to get involved. If someone can help I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Bill

[mac_daddy]

Same here, I would like to play in an A&A tourny, please let me know on what to do as well.

[spacebug]

I don't think there are currently any A&A tournaments open.

If you keep your eyes on the tournaments page:
http://www.gametableonline.com/tourname ... ntlist.php
there are bound to be more A&A tournaments coming soon.

Also, you can get E-Mails sent to you to let you know about upcoming tournaments. When you log into the GTO front page, go to the "Edit Profile" link (in the bar down the left of the screen). Find "Receive email about upcoming tournaments?" and select "Yes", then scroll down and save your settings.

AcesUp is setting up an A&A League, I'm not sure whether it's full or not, check it out:
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1757&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[mac_daddy]

Ok, thanks a bunch! I have signed up for the notices of tournaments, I have also already been ready for the 2v2 thing! Thanks again!

[EarlTony]

I usually just play Cribbage. It is easy and scoring is simple, but still some strategy.

A neighbor of a guy at work is the current Cribbage Master of the High Sierras cmoths

[Snakeplitzskin]

ya me too