Axis can`t win

[bb82]

Rikler:

There are many ways to introduce yourself to a new group of gamers. As you will find, GTO is a group of very passionate gamers whether it's A&A or any other game. I would have suggested another approach but that ship sailed.... Welcome.

Really though, this isn't diplomacy. No need to worry about what others think of you. Just enjoy this wonderful site and have fun. And yes, welcome.

[commander_chaos]

Dont let BB lie to you, he dosn't play nearly as consertive as he likes to let on

[bb82]

Dont let BB lie to you, he dosn't play nearly as consertive as he likes to let on

OUTRIGHT slander!!

[Sammog]

fact

[Rikler]

ok bb82,

Thxs for the welcome and for what it`s worth let me say publicly I apologise for offending u. My remarks were I admit intended to provoke spirited exchange but It was not intended to make u feel like I`m out to attack the game or promote the wareclub.

That`s just where we ended up.

I let u have axis at 7 no tech. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

[bb82]

I apologise for offending u.

None needed and I don't think you offended me specifically. But thanks.

I can get 'spirited' when certain topics arise .

[rjscmk]

I know we are 4 pages in, so probably most have stopped reading. For anyone still reading, I'd suggest not reading the strategies. at least until after you have played and figure stuff out. I will use stuff I SEE others do, but that's experience. I want to play and learn, not see if I can execute the best written strategy known.
Just a thought.

Also, to the point of axis can't win. I can win or lose pretty much either side, any bid. So long as my strategy, attention span, partner and dice outperform my opponent(s). That has only failed me in about half my games, so far.

[Sammog]

Wait... are you saying that you don't win or lose as either axis or ally in about half of your games? Truce? XD

[rjscmk]

Wait... are you saying that you don't win or lose as either axis or ally in about half of your games? Truce? XD

It depends on how many dice I have to roll..... Truce accepted.

[Rikler]

rjscmk,

In retrospect I should have clarified my position in a more detailed way. As I explained in clarification when I say Axis can`t win I meant they can`t win by using good strategy.

They win by dicing Allies and /or taking advantage of player error and incompetance. The Axis is predator.

If both play good strategy and get a fair dice game Allies always win. In effect I am saying Allies are stronger side.

Axis players know it, they just don like to admit it even tho they admit everytime they accept extra IPC, they won`t say it.

[bb82]

They win by dicing Allies and /or taking advantage of player error and incompetance.

If both play good strategy and get a fair dice game Allies always win.

By your reasoning, as long as the axis win, it is solely because of dice or allied error.. I suggest you keep that sort of in-game chat to a minimum as this sort of spiel will only offend those you play. It is back to the age old A&A saying that "I win because of skill and I lose because of the dice".

And based on some heated chat in our game and from what I've read, your strategic/tactical growth in A&A will be handicapped because you cling to the above. If someone consistently beats you, it's much more likely that you have errors in your strategy or tactics. Even with the worst sort of dice there is almost always a way that you could tweak your game to make a different/better result more likely.

[redrover]

It's usually impossible to delineate whether a win was because of incompetence or inferior strategy. for example if the ussr builds all tanks for most of the game, I consider that poor strategy so I think I would usually win against the allies because my axis strategy is better. There are many different strategies that a lot of very good players use (just look at the strategies forums) I think it's absurd to claim that every possible axis strategy will always be inferior to any allies strategy. There are some moves that are incompetent, making attacks when the odds are very strongly against you, forgetting to unload transports, leaving planes open to get taken, however to say that any of these mistakes was the only reason the other team wrong is an unproductive thought process. A good player can not only take advantage of mistakes but also put the other side into positions that force them to make mistakes. It seems like you generally agree that 7-8g is a reasonable bid for the axis under most playing conditions, but you also seem to still think that 7-8g still favors the allies. I have to strongly disagree. If you look at the results of games in which very good experienced players play against other very good experienced players so there is very little incompetence involved, I highly doubt you will find that either the axis or allies have much more or less than a 50% record. As for dice, they will favor the allies as much as they favor the axis, unless you believe GTO has some sort of grudge against the allies. Therefore its unfair to give credit to the dice for the games axis wins and not credit for the games the allies win.

[rjscmk]

Rikler
I think this thread is forcing you to defend a position you hold today. It isn't really fair to you. I get where you are coming from, and will concede that dicing, screwup and inferior allied play aside, the allies will win.
That said, enjoy the game.
I make a very weak comparison. How much quicker could the US civil war have ended had the first US overall comander pressed on a few more miles and broken Lee, early in the war. Mistrakes and poor strategies happen, thats why I keep playing either side, any setup.
Your point is clear, your poition, seems to leave no room for fun. Thankfuly it's a game based partially in luck.

Cheers

[Rikler]

bb82,

I haven`t offended anyone or had heated chat during a game except with you. Everyone else who has accepted my challege had GG and I think all who have played me would consider me honorable and would play me again.

[bmaster]

as fun as all this meta discussion is about true vs untrue assertions, I think everyone would have to admit that if you really want to have a lively discussion on GTO you probably want to either a) make a loud, aggressive claim and invite debate; or b)write an in-depth, thoughtful essay about some aspect of the game or strategy.

Most of us don't have time for b, and if it weren't for a, we'd hardly chat at all . Simple premises are good fodder for discussion, even if it's silly discussion...