Facebook PBEM Games

[Devereau]

Actually, at $0.27 per game, I'll continue to play. However, the number of games will greatly diminish, going from 12 games a month to possibly 4 since I don't plan to play more than 1 or 2 games at a time anymore. As much as I enjoy Axis & Allies, and for the same reason I don't play MMORPG's, it feels silly to invest more than $25 a year for a game when I can simply purchase a game on the Playstation Network and play as much as I want. Perhaps one day Axis & Allies will come out on Playstation, XBox, or as a PC game again...

Still, I have quite enjoyed myself since A&A became available. The folks at GTO have my sincere gratitude for developing the game and letting me play for free for over a year.

[Kandelon]

and now we pay 3 coins we get no points wow make it even less attractive

Depends on how one views points. A 5 coin live game pays the same as a 5 coin PBE game, so we're basically throwing PBE in for free there. So if you like sit-n-go games, the 5 coin option through PBE is your best pick. The 3 coin option is for those who are more interested in saving the extra 2 coins than getting prizes.

As for the xbox live comparison, $50 a year (or $96 if you pay month by month) gets you the gold membership but you still need to buy the games. Their model is closer to an ISP providing internet access so that you can play your various games online.

[tank_mechanik1]

well all i can say it seems like gto wants the players who cant spend all day in lobby to pay for a save feature to use sit n go games

i still dont understand why a save feature isnt offered in gto unless you play by email it seems like and i know im not alone here but you dont want an aa save feature cause then we dont spend 3-8 hrs in lobby playing

I love axis and allies i have every copy ever made some i have 3 or 4 but if they was a pc game without a save feature i would never have bought them

i remember in may you guys said save feature be here before end of summer well its end of summer where save feature????????????

[Devereau]

Comparing the price of a game of Axis & Allies to a value meal or a movie is about as unfair as comparing it to TripleA, which is free but more or less illegal. As far as I'm aware, nothing quite like Axis & Allies online exists out there except for perhaps a few wargames, such as Gary Grisby's World at War, which allow PBEM games. Of those, most sell for between $20 and $60, and allow for unlimited play. This makes comparing the price of Axis & Allies difficult at best. Like Kandelon mentioned, 3 GTO coins is great if you only want to play a few games. Even $6.75 for 1 month seems inexpensive, but it still ends up costing more in the long run. I don't have a problem with the 3 coin option since it's really a great deal for the casual player. If GTO thinks that $80 a year is worth it for players who play 25 games a month, then there's not much I can do. All I want is the possibility of an annual subscription for those players who want to play several games at a time. In the end, I think GTO would end up making more money from the subscriptions than from the coin system for 2 reasons: 1) Players would be encouraged to stay longer, having already paid for a year & 2) More players would join since those turned off by the coin system would have another option.

[aagamer_kc03]

Devereau

There are free clubs online....a cdrom (3rd edition) and a PBEM (Classic, 4th and AA50)...feel free to PM me for info, I don't want to post their URL's here out of respect for GTO

Kandelon- I think you will find the 3 coins no more attractive than the 5...I think had you guys done the math....50 people or more (Heck, the GTO Vets on facebook have 50) paying a yearly or bi-yearly fee will generate more than those that buy coins. I also think if the coins don't fly....the player pool will shrink, making those currently purchasing coins less likely to continue....kinda gets boring playing the same people every time.

I think GTO focused on the "price" more than the "principle" in their discussions...not really sure why, it's unfortuante. As far as leagues and tournies go....well...I think your player pool will be too small to sustain such a venture. Your current tournament table shows no or little changes from spots 4 or 5 on down in the last 10 days to 2 weeks

I found this interesting:

Facebook Game Stats
Total Games Played 8717
Total Games Played This Month 0
Total Games Played Last Month 1641

Zero games since the change, I guess the 2-3 challenges showing either didn't count or were removed by the challenger.

I also think that until you fix ALL the bugs....charging per game is just wrong.

I wish you all the best of luck! I may, when time allows catch a "live" coin free game (till that changes) but PBEM is done for me.

[tank_mechanik1]

seems like they want to punish us who cant sit for hrs on end and play

still no save feature

on a differnt note i like how some people in gto lobb get mad when you complain about charging for aa but if they started charging per game in lobby they would be in line complaining too

[RobEng]

Devereau



I found this interesting:

Facebook Game Stats
Total Games Played 8717
Total Games Played This Month 0
Total Games Played Last Month 1641

The reason these dropped to 0 was because we integrated the games launched through Facebook with our main game system and the data is being pulled from a database that is no longer in use.

[tootall72]

Only time will tell how this is going to work. As far as growing the site, in my opinion one free play is next to worthless.

I agree in principle that 27 cents is not that much, however, the mere fact that people will have to pay will discourage a lot of people from even trying. Additionally, the only people left to play beginners will be people who are good players and most people will get discouraged if they get beat regularly. (After I signed up I lost my first 14 games - I kept playing, but if I had to pay I may have decided it was not worth my time.)

I found GTO/A&A online about two months ago and I enjoyed playing, but frankly the problems, (i.e., people not playing and bugs), have led me to decide that paying 5 coins, or even 3 coins is not worth it.

Part of my decision is also based on the fact that when I check there are no open games, or when there are open games they always involve the same people. I am not interested in playing the same person again and again.

I don't profess to know the answer to how things should proceed, but the current solution is not good enough for me.

[fated0ne]

As someone who is pretty new here but did pay the money to unlock PBEM after finding it on facebook, mostly because I wanted the option to play more people, I would much rather have a flat rate fee on a 3 or 6 or 12 month model. People (or more specifically gamers) are used to these type of models, alot of people have experience with things like xbox live, MMO games, etc. Using a pay per game model feels very unfamiliar to people and more skeptical to new users. Why? I couldn't tell you. Psychology thing maybe?

I am more then happy to shell out a certain amount of money for unlimited use of a service, but I feel hesitant to pay for something every time I use it. It makes me less likely to play new games. Frankly speaking I would be perfectly fine if I payed 25 dollars for a duration but I was limited to having 5 active games vs if I payed 25 dollars in uses. Again I couldn't tell you why but for me it's easier to process a set amount on it vs paying every time.

OH well, my 2 cents.

[Kanino]

Sorry GTO, I agree with aagamer, maybe catch a live game now and then but Im not going to pay for a save feature on a per game basis. Good luck with that.

[Jimbeamerziggy]

How can you really compare a movie to a java based boardgame online??

The cost of producing your average movie is well into the millions of dollars... often tens of millions...

hell, sometimes a single actor in said movie will cost production several million dollars...

What is cost of coding a board game to work on java? You guys aren't movie stars you're programmers.

Let's face it, hard drive space and bandwitch are cheap, and your simple games can't possibly be using enough of either to justify comparing yourself to more expensive forms of entertainment.

You don't compare to mainstream video game consoles either, i disagree on the comparison not based on price, but based on the fact that the two are in entirely different leagues.

Again the cost of production and the talent overhead involved are just apples and oranges... not to mention that you don't pay a dime for advertising...

Not trying to get flamish here, maybe a more direct acknowledgement of some of the idea's in my last post and why you guys don't think they will work will calm me down a tad :)

[rem400]

The point of comparing the cost of various forms of entertainment is not in the relative cost of production, it's in the perceived value of the enjoyment received. I think we all would agree that entertainment in any form has a cost -it is NOT free - somebody pays. I would have gladly traded my last $10 movie ticket for 22 games of A&A (wife disagrees!). I would have been happier with both the quantity and quality of the entertainment.

A&A by the numbers as posted in A&A stats section:
FB games last month - 1641; GTO (mostly) live games - 7477 for an 18%/82% split. In this example, let's assume that the "save" game component is 25% rather than 18% (you fill in your percentage). About 2280 p2p games would have been played last month generating a "whopping" $1,026 of revenue at 5 coins/gm ($616 at 3/gm). Please raise your hand if you can live on that..... ?

Even down here in the backwaters the cost of bandwidth, licensing, salaries, rent, insurance, office supplies, yada yada yada, adds up to a lot more than $1000/month. Even coupled with GTO's other revenue streams, that incremental revenue doesn't add up to a lot in this economy.

I, too, am sorry the days of the free "save" games are probably over but, really, how long could that last? I think now's the time to provide input into the shape of a p2p system that provides a sustainable business model. "Free" is not a sustainable business model. 2 Happy Meals a year isn't either!

Hey Rob & Rory, I'm leaning toward a monthly subscription system at various levels of play or buying a block of games for use over a period of time. Enhancements will make this dog hunt.

[Kandelon]

still no save feature

PBE basically is the save feature. The only thing missing is a way to transform a live game into a PBE game on the fly. Unless you are thinking of a system where you can only resume the game when you've gathered all the players, which we thought seemed cumbersome and unneeded since you can all log into a PBE game and play live anyways...

So I'm hearing a lot of people saying that the main issue is the method, rather than the price? Would you pay $6.75 as a monthly fee for 25 games? Or to buy a bulk set of 25 "game starts"?

As for the "punishing players without much time", I can promise that at no point did anyone here say they hated people with jobs and families and wanted to punish them.

[aagamer_kc03]

The problem with the math REM is that you don't have the data of how many of the "live" games were "coin" games. Your other point about the saves though is accurate...I think the advertising and exposure on facebook though would be hard to figure out how many of those players migrated to the GTO site

[Jimbeamerziggy]

Rem you have basically made my point for me.

Although I feel that I've already made it pretty well myself two or three times and haven't exactly been acknowledged...

My argument is that charging more or less doesn't matter, as it will never be enough to really make gto explode into a profitable enterprise.

In order for this thing to make any kind of real money it needs better advertisers, and for that it needs more traffic.

And charging per play for your bread and butter content (pbe axis and allies) even in it's most basic form, is not an effective way to increase traffic.

I think GTO is so used to hearing about what a great product they have from the A&A loyal, that they seem to have forgotten that your casual gamer playing it one time (probably getting soundly beaten by a more experienced player) won't be so moved that they will automatically need to shell out cash to play again.

It's a good product... but in todays age people are used to Call of Duty and Halo3... and this just isn't comparable.

All this "perceived value" crap is just that. Crap. The product is thin, simple, and buggy at best. The only depth of gameplay comes from facing human opponents...

If gto is really paying all this overhead for salaries, office supplies, and computer power, than instead of charging the consumer per play they need to find a way to streamline their buisiness and bring some better talent on board, because the end result just doesn't seem to be as professional as all that.