Facebook PBEM Games

[Mathuc]

There are many valid points here that have been raised, and I would like to add my $0.02 worth.

I have paid for online games in the past through Steam. I pay once, ($52.00) and I own the game for life- so did several million other people. They had decent content, and supplied updates, and I was happy :). Then they came out with a new version, which I paid $39.99 and was even happier. Then they had a new game, ironically built on the same engine, but with a twist. I paid $9.99, and play that game more than ever!

Think about that. I would be willing to pay $10 for this game, with the low price due to the buggy nature of it. I'm pretty sure that several thousand other people would be willing to do so. You work on the bugs, but you allow people to play for free. You also work on a new version (A & A classic or A & A 1944?) When you release the new version you charge a nominal fee ($10 to new users, $8 to existing users (just a suggestion)). This is how Steam has built their business, and they now have a couple million subscribers.

I will not pay per game. It's just not worth it. Especailly since there are so many bugs, and indavidual games have crashed.

Something to consider.

[markhodgeNZ]

Hi Rob and Co.

I've been playing A&A via Facebook despite the bugs and many annoyances (particularly losing players that just stop taking their turns) because it was free, reasonably challenging and there is pretty much zero chance of me being willing to play A&A live when it takes so many hours to complete a game. I've been playing lots of Facebook Guillotine, basically because it was there, and "feels right" as a simple turn-by turn time filler game.

I also liked knowing that you were getting some revenue from adds - that "feel nice" factor.

However, as most people have indicated there is little chance I would ever consider pay-to-play A&A per game (or otherwise). I'm much more likely to play it elsewhere, or more likely, just not play it at all except with friend in real life (I have the boardgame - and chatting away while you play, breaking for meals etc, is quite different to playing via computer).

At the moment I'm just finishing off the games I had open since they have transferred across and are free to complete, and occasionally dropping in to see if anyone wants to play Tigris and Euphrates, which I also own as a boardgame, and prefer to A&A in any case.

I think charging per game is more likely to kill your Facebook advertising revenue and kill your recruitment of new members via Facebook. Short term it might boost revenue from your own site, but not for long since I would expect people to start removing the no-longer-useful Facebook apps.

I'm guessing the cost/time involved in hosting(?) on Facebook was exceeding your advertising revenue or hitting your team too heavily time-wise - which is a real shame since - I know your programmers will have put a lot of sweat and tears into their work and would like to see you earning enough off the site passively for it to be driving the programming as the major earner.

Best of luck.

Mark

[aagamer_kc03]

I think another issue is that if more people drop out than purchase coins...those left with coins will have a smaller number of opponents to choose from which will diminsh the value of purchasing coins....just a thought

I think (and I appreciate Rob acknowleding this earlier) had you posted your intentions before the change some of these issues could have been addressed beforehand. GTO would then have had the chance to look at whether they would actually lose money in the long run

[Sliceydicey]

Thanks to those who are reporting bugs. We try to fix all bugs as they come up and bug reports provide us tangible ways to look into them and try to reproduce them so we can fix them.

rem400, we are planning on implementing a kill games feature next week that will give you credit for a game if your opponent hasn't taken their turn in 2 weeks and reward the GTO Points to you.

[Kandelon]

Heh, didn't mean to pile the discussion on Rob but I had a busy weekend (12 Hours spent fixing my home computer yay!).

aagamer_kc03:

The surrender bug is "nice" but doesn't come close to addressing the real problem which is people that just "stop playing" when they are losing.

As SliceyDicey just said, forcing a surrender if your opponent stops playing is actually something that we were working on. It only just barely didn't make it in for the last release, so it should be in soon.

Jimbeamerziggy:

The questions i had that were answered by Kandelon had me really excited about the direction fb was heading, ie. the save feature and other bug fixes. If i had known id have to pay to play i wouldn't have been excited at all and as a result i felt very let down and even a little bit misled.

Sorry about that, I didn't mean to mislead you. In my defense we hadn't really decided what to do or when to do it at the time I posted that, though I will admit I knew we were planning to do something eventually.

I'd like to thank everyone for joining this discussion with us. I was a little worried it would all be yelling and flames, but we've got a good level headed community going here. We are open to suggestions and are not fully wedded to the current model. I will say that a fully free situation won't work, though it sound like most of you realize that. We've been running on the "freemium" model where the basic service is free, but there's a charge for premium content. We had planned for a while to have a "save game" feature be a premium item (which is basically what PBE is) but that rose the issue of what to do about our Facebook apps giving the same thing away for free. We decided to make the Facebook app an extension of the site, rather than a separate entity, which meant bringing the Coins concept over as well. (I'll note that ad revenue, though nice, was not proving to be nearly enough.)

Now, from your comments a number of good issues and thoughts have been raised. I always think of the games live as the basic content and then PBE as the premium extra, but to users coming from facebook or dedicated A&A players who are short on time PBE seems like the basic content, which might be the crux of the issue. We'll certainly be discussing ideas, like a limited number of PBE games for free or something like a subscription for "bulk" gaming, internally and welcome your input.

As far as bugs go the game's been pretty good recently I thought, though there's always more. With the "user walking away from the game" issue resolved soon, maybe it's time for another bug fixing pass...though there are still a few generic PBE features I'd like to add.

[aagamer_kc03]

Rob/kandelon....etc...

Having been involved in several clubs, assisting Greg att GenCon as his assitant for 7 years....what has always struck me as "special" about you guys is your willingness to listen and act accordingly to your community. I completely applaud you for that

Rob was a real hero to be the point guy on this the last few days and has taken some heat...I personally think that speaks volume about one's character

I truly hope that you all seriously consider the amount of exposure facebook gives you, the fact that a yearly or bi-yearly premium fee would work and in fact in my estimation would generate more revenue for you than people that won't buy coins. I apprecaite Kandelon acknowledging the following statement as I think it is so true:

" but to users coming from facebook or dedicated A&A players who are short on time PBE seems like the basic content, which might be the crux of the issue. We'll certainly be discussing ideas, like a limited number of PBE games for free or something like a subscription for "bulk" gaming, internally and welcome your input."

I think some still won't pay...but as more bugs are fixed more and more will play. A lot of old A&A players were re-introduced through facebook to this great game.

While the comments are very deragatory on the main facebook board...you should have an admin join the GTO Veterans club as that is where the most productive comments and the more serious players are at.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id= ... 936&ref=mf

[JasonV]

So, does this mean that there is no way that there are going to be Free games on Facebook anymore? Have you utterly rejected that idea? If so, you've lost a lot of really good players that could have helped you out.

If you haven't completely rejected Free games on Facebook, I'd ask you one last time to seriously reconsider it. I don't think you can charge for games on Facebook or at least you shouldn't be able to. You have no place having an Application on Facebook if you can't make it work for Free. Moreover, Facebook is a tremendous tool for driving your future growth the amount of traffic and word-of-mouth recommendations you can gain in the long-run will make you far more profit than you'll lose by storing the games there (again unless you are using a very inefficient storing method, in which case you'd better look to your programming again, server space is cheap and your game isn't complicated enough to require much space to save if you do it right). Point is Facebook is a resource that can do you more good than harm, I think you're stuck on the cost and not looking at the benefits in your analysis.

Don't be captivated by short-term gain mentality, you will lose out in the long-run. I'm still astounding that GTO is seemingly blowing it by charging for Facebook games -- you are torpedoing your own bloody ship! By doing so, sure, you may clear up any short-term server space issues and win that "battle" but it is a horrible strategy that will lose you the "war". GTO could be (have been?) The best place to play A&A if you do (did) this right. I hate to see such an opportunity squandered.

Please strongly reconsider finding another solution that keeps Facebook Free and doesn't lose you any more droves of fans than you already have.

[tank_mechanik1]

i cant even get to any games at facebook now

[favrebest04]

I've exposed A&A to my brother N law via face book and we play fairly often. I then spoke to one of my close friends and brother about trying out the game, but told them we had to wait until the update was finished. Now I found out that I can't invite them through FB and they would have to pay to try it out in the first place.

I would like to know how you expect to get new players to join when they can't play the game without paying? Sure they can go on and play some random person who won't help them figure out how to move pieces and the basic rules, but then I want to know if you actually expect them to even complete one game in that situation?

This whole pay per play feature is a joke. This site warfish.net allows players to play Risk style games for free, but a Plus membership is required to access the best features. To play for free you only get access to one basic map an ugly version of the original Risk board, and you can't tweak any of the settings The upgraded membership is around $10 every 6 mo. This gains you acces to the hundreds of maps they have created and allows you change rules, and invite friends to play with you. (I would be willing to pay that to GTO.) So for those new players or those who refuse to pay, they could play A&A with no options for Bid's, which side they'll play, or the other games you guys offer. But those who do pay get those added features and the other games. This may work, with some tweaks by you guys.

I would like to know what you think, but I can't interest my brother or friend in joining GTO where as FB was easy to invite them.

Micah

[Jimbeamerziggy]

Thanks Kandelon for the acknowledgement and quasi-sort-of apology. I do understand that you guys shouldnt be expected to work on these games and provide this site for free...

I just think that the holy grail for both gto and it's members would be an add revenue driven site. With truly premium content being paid for by users...

The way I see it is that the casual gamer doesnt want to drop any dough for coins, and is happy with something along the lines of what you have going on at facebook now (maybe minus a few added features) as long as it's free.. and I see some more serious (Primarily A&A) players, who are likely the same people that are willingly dropping cash now, having no issues paying for things like fully placeable bids, tournament entry fees, Game variations, in game pming, the ability to invite friends, country selection, unlimited open pbem games, and countless little features along those lines that culminate in a truly premium gaming experience.

Alot of casual gamers just aren't willing to pay, but you absolutely need casual gamers to traffic your site to increase your advertising dollar... there simply aren't enough hardcore guys and gals out there to foot the entire bill if you drive away a nice chunk of the base, and prevent a large percentage of new people from experiencing the software in the first place.

Succesful buisiness, as I understand it, is always about expanding your consumer base... what you've done here has in a way limited yourself to people who are willing to pay to play boardgames online, which just isn't anywhere near the amount of people willing to actually play boardgames online...

The facebook app seemed to me like what it was, a beta. I did not expect to be able to have it in it's current form for free forever, I expected to eventually have to play a very basic version without certain features like bids, custom game options, or in game chat, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you noted that alot of us see pbem as basic content. I think it should be obvious that the same casual gamers that aren't happy about having to pay are the same ones who aren't willing to sit for five hours and finish a single game!

[Jimbeamerziggy]

The basic questions I would like to see addressed in this thread are these...

1. What is the long term plan for gto? What would you eventually like the site to be?

2. Do you guys agree that a strong casual user base drawing lots of traffic and ad revenue SUPPLEMENTED by more serious gamers paying for premium software and features is the holy grail of a maintanable and profitable GTO?

3. Do you think, with your current set up, or even any setup offering anything less than free BASIC pbem A&A, will be adequate to sustain the kind of growth in traffic necessary to cover your overhead and make some money via advertising dollars alone, with premium content as added profit?

4. To make it through the rough patch you seem to be in, has management or ownership reached out to, or even considered any advertisers or potential sponsors?

Thanks for getting involved admins, I hope you can at least humor me with a few thoughts on those.

[Zhukov4]

My 2 cents...

For me, the PBEM feature is GTO's strongest contribution to A&A gaming--it's much more convenient than PBEM via Triplea. Furthermore, it's a much more realistic model for online A&A than using the live server. I thought it was the future of A&A gaming online and tried to spread the word, but now I'm not so sure as 45 cents a game seems rather high, especially for a still-buggy application. It doesn't seem so far-fetched that a community of gamers could get together and create another application--after all several models already exist.

Playing A&A on the live server takes up way too much time and there is always a possibility of a dc. Without a way to save games, it is a flawed game that doesn't have the same potential as your PBEM product. At this point, it's harder to recommend GTO over free programs that offer save/autosave/custom maps/edit as the Facebook format was the strongest argument in GTO's favor.

If a player played a dozen games per month, then the cost per year would be approximately 65$. This seems expensive compared to other computer games I've played that also require server space and likely took more time to program than Axis. What seems more sensible is either a lower base price or monthly or annual or bulk prices....

This move to pay to play might have been more successful had it been implemented a little later. Facebook A&A was still pretty new, with kinks still being worked out, but it was generating a lot of buzz and attracting lots of new users. By waiting a few months you might have gotten a solid base of customers who became accustomed to the convenience of PBEM and would be willing to pay to continue playing (say, for newly programmed versions of AA42 or AA50). But at this point, I think plenty of consumers will be happy to return to what they did before Facebook. It's not just a matter of cost, it's also that it will likely get tougher to play quality games because less people are able to play PBEM.

I am disappointed not just by this move but by the perception that the bubble may have burst--A&A is a classic game and the PBEM format offered a convenient and reasonable way to enjoy it online (ie it was possible to enjoy A&A and limit oneself to 20-30 mins per day). The game's popularity could still easily explode. I hope GTO will be able to find enough new users to get the price back down. The best bet for profitability may be offering a solid and popular product at a low price (that discourages competition) that eventually takes full advantage of the public's hunger for computer games and A&A's position as the alpha dog of strategy gaming.

[Kandelon]

Let see...

JasonV: No, we don't utterly reject anything unless it absolutely won't work. As mentioned above we are looking at the various options and discussing what to do. It's possible that there will be some type of free Facebook gaming, but it does seem unlikely that it will go back to exactly what it was. At the very least there needs to be some sort of premium content or tie to coins there, instead of the completely separate identity it had before.

tank_mechanik1: What sort of problems are you seeing? I've personally been having a problem with facebook altogether (not just the games), but no one else in the office has that issue so I assumed it was just me (and maybe it is if you have a different problem).

favrebest04: There is an invite page, but it's no longer tied to challenges (it's a different "tab"). This was necessary to merge the facebook games with the PBE games from the site. As for the price preventing others from trying it, that's something we'll be discussing. I'll add the idea of a "no options" version as the free version to the idea list as that one could be promising.

Jimbeamerziggy: Ad revenue plus premium content is definitely the direction we've headed in. Ad revenue was the only direct revenue from facebook, and though we get some converts from facebook to the site it hasn't been huge. With PBE becoming a premium content and the ads on facebook not covering costs, premium content had to be incorporated into the app. Ads might be able to do more if we get bigger advertisers, but to get those you need more traffic than we have now. Again, we are open to suggestions and will be discussing what facebook should look like in the future.

[tank_mechanik1]

none of my games seem to work or maybe no one will play them out not 1 game of mine has a player move yet almost all of them say its my turn on there side but it shows it as my turn for me i opened every one and they show when open enemys turn now i have like 8 games i cant even play out

[JasonV]

Facebook should have been to build up your fanbase. Transitioning them into paying customers hasn't been that great because the game is still a Beta, once you get it completed then you can offer a premium playing experience and charge a premium for it, until then people expect to play for free, after a basic A&A game for free and the full game for a fee are acceptable.

The things that are bugging people are: the sudden dumping of pay-per-play on us without warning; charging for an incomplete beta game; charging too much.

To make the A&A game a non-Beta that is worth paying for you need to fix these things:

1) eliminate all of the bugs (bugs = beta)

2) allow each player to chose which nation they play

3) a full open bidding system [an open editing system would be even better yet]

4) National Advantages - if your stated goal is to provide a boardgame experience then you need to do this as a premium feature, no one else is doing this and it would really make your version stand out. [OK, this one isn't a deal breaker like the others and it is a lower priority and sort of a bonus but it should be doable later]

5) game saved on a server, not required to play the whole thing in one sitting [this you had]

For this last one, I'm a bit confused:

what is the deal with calling the new setup PBeM? Play by e-mail means e-mailing a file back and forth and playing it with an application that one has downloaded and installed on their computer. This doesn't seem to be the case with GTO FB A&A, at least in the free games that were left from before the change the games are still played online on the web not through e-mail. Does the new system actually play by e-mail or is it still on the server? PBeM isn't worth paying for, having the games on a server (if the other conditions are met) is.

On the GTO page your company states:

"The goal of GameTable Online is to give you the opportunity to play great tabletop games at times when it’s not convenient to get friends together to play. ... you only need a computer connected to the Internet in order to get in a quick game on your schedule."

Has this changed with the PBeM model? I'd love to try it out and see but I am not willing to pay money just to find out.

.

Look, you guys really have a great product potential, you have a strong base program with the absolute best A&A appearance and movement interface, Transport Loading/Unloading could/should be streamlined but besides that if you only could meet the above conditions I think you'd have a great premium product well worth paying for, it's just not there yet which is why you're getting all the resistance to pay-per-play.

When you move from Beta to a Premium pay game on Facebook the right way to do it is to give advanced notice of what you are going to do, how it is going to work, and when it is going to happen (either that or give people free coins to virtually buy the transition time), keep a free game with only basic features (there are lots of ways to do a Free Basic game on FB that gets you traffic without costing you too much, we can discuss that if you want), then start the premium games at 1 coin per game for 1 level of features and more coins per game for more features (if you insist on going with the pay-per-play coin method instead of the subscription or even game ownership revenue models).

You need people to stick around until you complete the Beta, free is how you get them to stay and then try the finished product. You jumped the gun without warning and are now paying the price.

Free it back up, fix it up, then you can start charging up for it.